13.06.2024
Innovation pioneers are characterized by creativity, a willingness to take risks and perseverance and drive progress in various areas. One of these innovation pioneers is Tobias Leisgang. He is a part-time manager at the Brose Group, an independent consultant, podcaster, author and a so-called scanner personality. In the following interview, he talks to Dr. Tanja Jovanovic about what this is, why companies benefit from it and how Tobias Leisgang deals with decisions.
You are a manager, freelance consultant, podcaster and author. How do you manage to juggle all of this?
Tobias Leisgang: I think I'm very curious and enjoy learning new things. I also have a bit of a drive to make the world a little better. In other words, to ensure a good future for myself, because I hope to live on this earth for a few more years, but also for my children. And that's what drives me to try out and experiment as much as possible and achieve an effect somewhere.
How did you come up with the idea of working part-time in your management position at automotive supplier Brose, and how did the company react?
Tobias Leisgang: That was two years ago. I was on vacation with my family and had a few ideas in my head that I needed more time for. It was clear that I had to cut back somewhere and my full-time job was simply taking up too much time. Then I went to my boss after my vacation and said: "Hey boss, I'd like to do my job part-time." He was a bit taken aback at first, because a management position and part-time work were not that common. I didn't know anyone who did that either. We then discussed it a bit. Of course there were concerns about whether it would work or not. After a few negotiations, we agreed that I would initially have a four-day week, which corresponded to a reduction to 80 percent of my working hours. This agreement was made for a period of six months. After this time, we sat down together again. It was possible that I wouldn't be able to do it, or that my boss would say it wouldn't work at all. But after experimenting for six months, we realized that it was working. Then I just kept going and now I only work 25 hours, which is 60 percent of a normal working week.
Has this approach to life made you more innovative in any way?
Tobias Leisgang: Yes, I would say that it has actually made me more innovative. My definition of innovation is: there is an idea, but there is also an implementation. And I have to say, on the one hand, I can try out more ideas with this lifestyle. I can actually start more experiments, because not everything works with innovation. It has to be tried out. Some things work, some things don't. I can shape the job I have in the company a little. I always like to compare it to a tapas bar. I put together a tapas menu from the activities I like to do and also the amount I want to consume of the various things in quotation marks.
I also believe that the company and I both benefit a lot from it, because I learn things in my self-employment that I bring to the company here, but I also learn things in the company that help me with my self-employment. So it really is a win-win situation. That really is cross innovation in action. Learning between the different sectors. What one sector doesn't know, the other might know. That's part of my job or my activity, because I can look into different contexts and not just the automotive industry.
You have your own podcast with your colleague Peter Maischak. It's called "Kopf und Bauch, der Podcast der Entscheidungen". What's behind the title?
Tobias Leisgang: I've actually been working on the topic of decisions for many years. Partly because I asked myself why people or key companies find it so difficult, especially when it comes to innovation. There is a lot of uncertainty. What works and what might not work? It has always taken a long time to make decisions, or people have simply not dared to make them. I also dealt with this because I didn't learn it at school or university. Peter, my fellow podcaster, also has a lot of knowledge about decision-making. We met on LinkedIn and once had a discussion about the topic because we were a bit controversial. He's more of a numbers and data-driven decision-maker. I say that it can also come from the gut. And then we said we should actually discuss it for an hour and record it straight away. And that's how the idea for this podcast came about, as well as the title Head and Gut, to present these two opposites, so to speak.
Cross innovation: Allowing different sectors to learn from each other is part of my job. What one industry doesn't know, the other may know, and my insights into different contexts enable me to link this knowledge effectively.
Tobias Leisgang
Brose Group, independent consultant and trainer
Can you tell us two of your personal strategies for making difficult decisions?
Tobias Leisgang: When I came across the concept of type 1, type 2 decision-making, it was something that really changed my decision-making behavior. To explain briefly: Amazon once published this and they say that you basically have two types of decisions. Type one is the big decision with major consequences. There's a lot at stake. It may cost a lot of money and is irreversible. Amazon used a door as an analogy. It has a knob on it and if it closes, you can't get out easily, it's expensive and you have to call a locksmith. So you have to think carefully about whether you use this door.
Most decisions in business, but also in private life, are actually type 2 decisions, which you can actually reverse at any time with little effort. The image of a revolving door is used for this. You can look in and if you say, this looks different from what I imagined, I don't like it, then you simply go back through the revolving door. That may cost a bit of time and money, but in principle I don't have to be afraid of it. And that's a tip that really helps me, because I do a lot of experiments and I really say, okay, this is a type two decision, it's reversible, it can be turned back. I just try it.
We also used to have a poker coach with us, he coached all the celebrities on TV Total Poker Night and is a former successful poker player himself. And he has the philosophy that knowledge is often behind the decision. So in poker, you first have to bet money to find out what the other players' hands are like. And that's actually my second tip. Data is often collected in order to make the best possible decision. But you can only really know when you go into action. And that's why: Have the courage to make a decision. Experiment. Think about what is at stake and then you will actually get the right information.
Do you generally encounter the prejudice that sustainability and profitability are contradictory?
Tobias Leisgang: Thank goodness I hear that less today than I did two or three years ago when I started working on this topic. But too often this contradiction or prejudice is still there. Perhaps out of ignorance, perhaps also because of the keyword energy costs. Because some time ago, renewable energies were perhaps even more expensive than conventional energies, but the issue of ecology was not priced in. So someone else pays the bill for the fact that we use something cheaply. I always like to compare it to a stool. For me, sustainability has three facets. Firstly, economic sustainability, ecological sustainability and social sustainability. And if one of these legs is too short, then the stool is crooked and then it falls over easily. For me, it goes both ways. Ecological sustainability won't work if economic sustainability doesn't fit. But vice versa too. Then at some point I'll have a planet but no more resources or I'll have environmental disasters. And then economic sustainability will also suffer significantly. And that's why it's often the case that economics and ecology actually form a great symbiosis.
Do you have an example for us?
Tobias Leisgang: I now know of many examples from our supply chain where there are super interesting solutions that both save money and are more sustainable. That's quite logical. Energy costs money and things that consume a lot of energy, if the energy can be reduced, then it also becomes cheaper.
For example, if our supplier has a great idea on how to make a production process even more efficient, then that is always in the interests of sustainability because I may have to throw away less material or use less energy. Perhaps someone has invented a new material that is not made from finite resources, but from renewable raw materials. Or someone has a solution for closing a cycle and says, okay, I've increased the proportion of recycled material here and that makes it both cheaper and more sustainable.
It is often said that people like you have a so-called scanner personality. These are people who are very curious and creative, always want to learn and try something new, but also get bored quickly. When does Tobias Leisgang get bored?
Tobias Leisgang: A Tobias Leisgang gets bored when he has been working on a topic for too long. So if I've been doing something for three years, then I need something new. But sustainability is such a marathon thing. There are always new things happening. There is a colorful, dazzling world of start-ups in the field of sustainability. I think dozens of great start-ups are founded every day that deal with this topic and create great solutions, including in the area of innovation. There is always something to improve. New technologies and AI are on everyone's lips. Not a day goes by without a new tool coming out. I don't think it gets boring that quickly when it comes to innovation or sustainability. So there is always new food for my curiosity, in any case.
Do you have any tips for the right impetus to tackle a new project?
Tobias Leisgang: I have two tips. Firstly, I would like to come back to the tip about type 2 decisions and simply encourage everyone to make a big decision into a small decision. It's often like being on the 5 diving board in the swimming pool. It's a bit of a fear. You can also jump from the 1 into the water first. That doesn't feel so bad. So make the project smaller, don't make such a big deal out of it. And tip number two: I often perceive a bit of a fear of the future, an uncertainty. What could be in store for us? Just having the confidence to say, okay, I can shape this. In very few cases will a decision mean the end of the world or be catastrophic. And yes, mistakes can happen. But at least I have my realization of what exactly didn't work. I have tried. So take courage and embrace the future. Shape it for yourself. Just do it.
The interview was conducted by Dr. Tanja Jovanovic, Head of Marketing and Innovation Management, Member of the Management Board, Bayern Innovativ GmbH, Nuremberg.
